Conversations We Should Be Having: All Of Us Or None Of Us

In her second installment of “Conversations We Should Be Having,” S. Rae Peoples speaks with Tim McKee, activist and publisher of North Atlantic Books, to discuss diversity and equity, and ask the uncomfortable-yet-pivotal question: How can white men contribute to and benefit from racial justice in a committed and meaningful way?

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Events over the past two years have sparked deep reflection about our collective future for America. For most, if not all of us, this period has been marked by imagining a better country. We long for a nation that is grounded in justice and equity. We all want to live in a place where all of us feel safe and supported in a deep sense of belonging, and have access to resources that allow us to thrive. Perhaps one of the most critical questions that emerge when thinking about a better America is, How do we engage in the practice of simultaneously imagining and creating a country that brings us together and keeps us whole?

The response to this question will vary, depending on our respective location within several social categories such as race, sex, and power. As a Black woman, I know the ways I can effectively engage in creating a better country. Conversations about my role as a Black woman in this ambitious endeavor are plentiful. In fact, I must confess that there are times when I feel like such conversations are the default, giving all those who do not identify as Black women an excuse to remove themselves from the conversations and work. This highlights the detrimental myth that the onus of imagining and creating a better America (for all of us) is somehow placed squarely and solely on the shoulders of Black women.

To turn this myth on its head, I stepped into a conversation with Tim McKee, publisher at North Atlantic Books to explore the role and responsibilities that white men have in our collective work of creating a new America. This conversation is predicated on the recent Bridge Project Findings Report that was put forth by the Social & Economic Justice Leaders Project.

Tim wholeheartedly believes that the publishing industry needs an updated edition — an entire rewrite, if possible. “American book publishing, like most industries, is super white at the top. It's super male and white,” he says. “It can be kind of awkward if someone notices: ‘In this room of 40 publishers, there's only one person of color here and five women. Can we talk about that?’” 

Tim’s company has embraced a number of institutional shifts to work toward transformative parity. Significantly, North Atlantic books implemented a transparent salary scale for greater accountability and to help prevent bias and pay inequities. “This came out of our racial equity committee,” says Tim. “What is the difference [in salary] between the top person and lowest person? And what's the logic and the architecture so that it's clear why someone is paid more? What work they're doing that's different? What are the paths towards promotion?” 

The company is also making sure that the diverse styles and languages of the titles on their book list are properly managed, not stifled and packaged to fit the structures approved by old and outdated traditional models. “Our staff got training in ‘radical copy editing’ because we’re working with a more and more diverse set of authors. We were increasingly running into issues where writers — usually writers not of normative identities — were saying, ‘What's up with that change? I like to spell it that way, Thank you very much!’”

Creating space for different choices and language is ongoing work — “because language is always evolving,” adds Tim — which puts the focus on “care more than being correct.” This is not, as some assume, just about approving a bunch of acceptable terms that work at this historical and political moment, but a true reconsideration of how words, grammar, and punctuation have the power to frame narratives that impact culture, and that different people and different cultures use those things differently. “You can’t just perfectly memorize the lexicon of the things you're supposed to say,” he explains. “That’s not doing equity work. There’s not a monolith of diverse people.” 

Exploring further, I ask: “Thinking thirty years out, what does a new American or a new American identity look like to you? What does it feel like in your body? What would a truly equitable everyday prosperous world look like? A world that truly makes meaningful, lasting, and beneficial shifts for the generations to come?”

Tim takes a moment to think about a world where the activism for anti racism, diversity, equity, and inclusion has fully manifested and integrated into a lived reality. “Not that I don't think it's possible, but I guess I'm just so used to it not being that way that it's a little incredible to imagine in terms of what it would look like,” he says. “I would probably be doing even more listening, some more following.” 

Tim tries picturing the spectrum of professional industries undoubtedly benefiting from diverse leadership. “What would it be if we were really allowing the flavor, the shape, the experience of, let's say, a disabled trans person who was an astrologer, and how, due to their identity, shaping the way they view astrology, practice astrology? Therefore, what they would be contributing to astrology would be unique and shaped by that. Astrology itself would change — and it would be evolving,” he says, welcoming these possibilities. “Certain sacred cows with those disciplines would start to fade and melt away. And so I'm not scared of that at all. For me, let those melt away.”

Curious to meet all the edges of these types of conversations, I ask Tim about a training he’s involved with where white men discuss these issues: Defecting From White Supremacy.

I pose the question: What is the work that is uniquely required of white men, given their location to race, sex, and power, in order to create the possibility for this new America? 

“The process of imagining and creating a better America is all of us or none of us,” Tim asserts. “It requires all of us, including white men, to understand how to engage in the work, and to rise to the occasion.” To this end, it is critical that white men seek out spaces and networks, in accountable ways, that allow them to talk about their fears, struggles, and questions around race, sex, and power. This is just as critical as the need for white men to cultivate meaningful relationships across varying differences. These points create a deeper capacity for listening, receptivity, and integrity — all of which are generative and healing for white men, and by extension for America.

The group Tim meets with is a gathering of 70 white men who have created a space where they can safely express their fears about being left out. “They're gathering because we’re being asked by women and trans folks and BIPOC folks, ‘Please talk to your people!’ ‘Rally up your kin!’” he explains. This type of homogenous group is the only space in which these men can express vulnerabilities. “Most white men aren't gonna talk about how hard it is to be a white man in mixed spaces, right?” 

So what is the actual work required of those white men, uniquely, because of their location to race, sex and power in America to help dismantle that system? Tim believes the real step would be truly listening under that new leadership. “To be changed by that power shift. It’s one thing to accept the power shift and be like, ‘Ooh, I've got kind of a diminished role now. That's intense and I guess I need to work on that.’ [Instead of] ‘it's good this is happening!’” He shared that one of the men talked about the pain of “always thinking I need to be an expert on something.” Tim himself recalls being raised to show no vulnerability, to not give in, to play sports and compete even while he was injured. 

Being able to look at the bigger picture, as Tim does, he considers the feeling of loss — even loss of power — voiced by many white men. “The particular skill and power that I have, it would probably be harnessed very specifically … wouldn't that be preferable for me?” he wonders, framing his life through this lens of collective benefit. “I don't see a loss there. I see gain both for America, but also for everyone in there — including myself.”